Convince me Matt Forte is worth picking in the top 6

efactor

Coming at you
eF............................

First off, nobody's a sure thing. We saw what happened to Brady in week 1 last season and the inexplicable decline of many a stud fantasy player in their prime with no obvious reason.

Second, Forte doesn't even really have to improve at all over last year to justify his draft position. I'd be perfectly happy with a repeat performance.

Third, you can rate whomever you want, wherever you want and I'll never refer to you as wrong. I may however aggressively request that I be included in your league, especially if there's real money involved.

Can't say definitevely whether Gore or Forte is the more talented back. That's a "real football" topic. This is a fantasy football thread, which means I prefer raw stats/points over talent. I also prefer guys who I can reasonably count on to be healthy each week without a "questionable" symbol beside their name.

So I'll cut you a deal. You get past the YPC obsession. I'll get past the situational improvement, and we'll just judge Forte on last season's production and assume he'll simply repeat it.

Certainly even you can't provide any tangible data on why we should expect a decline from 2008, right?

Nobody can provide "tangible data" at this point.

I think he can repeat his 3.9 average and IF he gets his 320 carries, he will end up around 1200-1300 yards. TDs are always a wildcard with a few exceptions. More or less than 8 rushing? Who knows?

Where I don't think he repeats is in the passing game. 60+ receptions for a running back is not easy to repeat and history says he won't. Probably won't get 4 receiving TDs either, so that's where I see a decrease in numbers this year.

Again, I don't think he will suck. I just don't think he is a safe pick based on one year. You have said several times that you wish you could play in a league with those of us who will pass on Forte early. That's simply foolish. I would love to play in a league with someone who bases injury probability on one season and would take a less talented player based on one season of production.

Maybe someday we will compete in the same league. Looking forward to the challenge. Good luck in 09...........
 
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Bayton

New Member
Ill play devil's advocate for a bit, well just cuz I feel like it.
I preface this by saying I'm a huge Forte fan. I owned him in every league that I'm in. Drafted him recently at 1.13 in a dynasty league(before CHI got Cutler) and will draft him at almost any given chance.

I don't think you can call this argument done and over with. I just don't think the opposition argument was well explained with exception of a few posts.

Forte was the bears everything last year. Every down, he was on the field. He touched the ball 379 times. That is quite a bit of pounding he received. Don't forget he was also utilized frequently in pass protection so thats even more pounding. The Bears themselves deemed it too much so they vowed find a 2nd RB to relieve some of the touches.

This is from David Richard of CBSsports
A new wrinkle in the running game also will catch some attention. After Matt Forte logged 316 carries and 63 receptions last year, the Bears made it a priority to find someone to help him with the rushing workload. They didn't look far as Kevin Jones was re-signed and tabbed to aid Forte in 2009. The Bears like Jones' familiarity with the offense and feel like he's better off now that he's more than a year removed from major knee surgery. Jones shouldn't take on enough work to limit Forte's stats, but he could trim Forte's upside by swiping 100 touches over the course of the year.
Forte had 316/434 rushes of the teams total. 73%
63/304 receptions of teams total. 20%
51% of teams total offensive touches
Those are pretty high percentages. By comparison, here are other percentages of workhorse around the league.
Rsh -Rec (Total offensive touches)
73% -20% Matt Forte(51%
72% -8% Clinton Portis(46%)
70% -8% Adrian Peterson(49%)
70%-17% L Tomlinson(47%)
69% -10% Thomas Jones(42%)
67% -2% Micheal Turner(46%)
68% -10% Jamal Lewis (47%)
52% -15%Brian Westbrook(36%)
Frank Gore(40%)

Fortes percentages are higher in both rushing and receiving than any other RB in the league. That is where his value was. He was force fed the ball. I know, I followed every game of his. With the team trading for a franchise QB, drafting a 3rd round WR, vowing to give Forte more rest, do you really see those percentages staying that high? I don't believe thats going to happen.

And for Cutler. Yes, he never really had a RB as productive as Forte. Yes, they were pass happy because they couldn't consistently run the ball. I am going to show 2 sets of stats. completions to RB/Total Completions/total passes and then 2 percentages for both Chicago and Cutler.
Chicago
71(completions to RB)/304(completions)/528(pass attempts)
23%(% of completions to RB over completions)-13%(% of completions to RB over pass attempts)
Denver - Cutlers 2 years as starter
(2008 season)
42/386/620
11%-7%
(2007 season)
45/326/515
14%-9%

So, as cutler became more established as a QB, he looked less and less for Rbs each time he dropped back. The numbers show that Cutler trusted his arm and chucked it instead of dropping it off. Orton on the other hand lacks that big arm which also explains why he dropped it off so much to Forte. It's not hard to think that Cutler will again trust his arm(most strong armed qb's do this) and chuck it instead of checking it down.

Of course, any thing can be argued due to circumstances. Every argument I've made I can counter logically. It all depends on how much weight you give to each side. With Cutler and offseason additions, Forte's ypc does stand to improve. I do believe his touches will go down a bit also. Is it possible they cancel each other out? absolutely.

It's hard to draw accurate parallels. However, Farve to the Jets and the subsequent value of T. Jones is about as close as you can get in recent memory.
 

efactor

Coming at you
Awesome post, Ryan.

Ram, you buying this yet???

I agree. Great post...........

However, this actually makes the point that you should be cautious on Forte. As Ryan pointed out, his value lies in the fact that he was the Bears offense last year and was force fed the ball. Ryan also pointed out that probably wouldn't happen again this year, so that is an automatic drop in value. Plus, the quote from CBS says he may be looking at as much as a 100 touch reduction in 2009, which if true, will seriously drop his value.

50-100 less touche means he better bring his YPC up to the 5 yard per carry range to show the same numbers. Just don't see that kind of talent in Forte to get there...........
 

Miller

Who Dey
Administrator
lol, you guys are doing a great job already, don't need my help.

Heck of a post Bayton! That my friends is a post worth a million vb's!
 

Runnik's Hambones

Active Member
I agree. Great post...........

However, this actually makes the point that you should be cautious on Forte. As Ryan pointed out, his value lies in the fact that he was the Bears offense last year and was force fed the ball. Ryan also pointed out that probably wouldn't happen again this year, so that is an automatic drop in value. Plus, the quote from CBS says he may be looking at as much as a 100 touch reduction in 2009, which if true, will seriously drop his value.

50-100 less touche means he better bring his YPC up to the 5 yard per carry range to show the same numbers. Just don't see that kind of talent in Forte to get there...........

How about the fact that Ryan road Forte to a championship win in all of his leagues last year. That's gotta sway you a bit.


..Ok that was a total lie, I'm just running out of material.
 

Miller

Who Dey
Administrator
How about the fact that Ryan road Forte to a championship win in all of his leagues last year. That's gotta sway you a bit.


..Ok that was a total lie, I'm just running out of material.
even if he did....that was LAST year ;) You don't win championships by living in the past...:pickle:
 

DearbornDolfan

Active Member
Here's a mock I just participated in. Guess who went 1.02?

mockdraft.png
 

Miller

Who Dey
Administrator
True but all we've been doing is using stats from LAST year.
but see here is the twist, see Bayton's post, while taking stats from last year he is taking into account how situations that may occur in the upcoming year will effect the stats for this year and thus his value for the upcoming season. If everyone simply performed as to how they did last year this would be a pretty easy game ;)

The key is being able to see how the stats of the past relate to the future.
 

ExperiencedRookie

Well-Known Member
Another fine display of homerism here Dearborn. Putting that in the file.

Ronnie Brown at 2.08 a full 10 picks higher than his 3.06 ADP.

Ted Ginn at 7.04 a full 28 picks higher than his 9.08 ADP.

Miami defense at 14.04 when you already had the Pitt defense.

Dan Carpenter at 15.08. Nuff said.


I'm just giving ya a hard time man...:)
 

DearbornDolfan

Active Member
Ronnie Brown at 2.08 a full 10 picks higher than his 3.06 ADP.

And yet, despite having Brown as my #1 RB and being fully prepared to take him 1.04 if Forte and Johnson go before I pick, I make the smart move and ensure I have an excellent starting backfield by drafting both Johnson and Brown. That's not a homer move, at least not much of one.

Ted Ginn at 7.04 a full 28 picks higher than his 9.08 ADP.

As my third receiver and halfway into the draft. I've stated before that I view Ginn as strictly a #3 fantasy WR and I followed up on that.

Miami defense at 14.04 when you already had the Pitt defense.

I would rather get what I want in the draft, which is what I said to somebody who questioned why I would draft two PK and two DEF.

Dan Carpenter at 15.08. Nuff said.

Why shouldn't I? Especially as a backup? The guy is usually good for one 4+ point kick a game.
 

WesDawg

'Burghapologist
Just curious how one can't see talent to improve a stat with only a 1-year sample size.

BTW eF, get a can of air for your keyboard, your period key seems to be consistently stuck.
 
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